Muslim Life Hackers
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Muslim Life Hackers
Dr Mohamed Ghilan: A Spiritual Perspective on the Gaza Situation
Joining us on this week's episode with Dr. Mohamed Ghilan, an Islamic tradition teacher, medical doctor, and PhD holder. In the conversation, we discuss the situation in Gaza from a deeply spiritual and theological perspective.
Timestamps:
00:00 Understanding the Gaza Situation
06:06 The Role of Religion in the Gaza Conflict
07:37 The Importance of Palestine in the Muslim World
11:04 The Impact of the Gaza Situation on the Muslim Community
22:58 The Role of the Financial System in the Gaza Situation
29:49 The Power of Speaking Truth and Raising Awareness
30:30 The Struggle for Al Aqsa Mosque and the Resistance
48:21 The Importance of Sincerity and Acceptance in Actions
50:33 The Power of Dropping Expectations and Embracing Contentment
57:00 The Journey Towards a God-Centric Worldview
About Dr Mohamed Ghilan:
Dr. Mohamed Ghilan, a distinguished scholar holding a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and an M.D., seamlessly blending science and spirituality. Beyond his extensive scientific background, and recognized among The 500 Most Influential Muslims, Dr. Ghilan is a holistic Islamic educator, offering comprehensive teachings on Theology, Jurisprudence, Hadith, Usool, Arabic, Poetry, spiritual purification, and Qur’anic sciences.
Connect with Dr Mohamed Ghilan:
Resources Mentioned:
- The Awakening the Resolve by Shaykh Ibn Ajiba
- The Book of Illumination by Shaykh ibn Ata-illah Al-Shakandari
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🏖️ This episode is sponsored by Sisters Explore, a company I founded to offer guided small-group travel for Muslim women to connect, explore, and enjoy faith-centered journeys. Learn more at http://www.sisters-explore.com
Disclaimer: Some links in this description are affiliate links.
I look at what's happening in Gaza as the tumor has metastasized. So Gaza is the metastasis. The primary source is not Gaza, it's in the rest of the ummah. We are the cause of what's happening in Gaza. Not that Gaza is the cause of what's happening to us or that we should, it's like we're doing a favor by being, oh, we're starting to raise awareness and we're starting to pay attention.
Podcast Opening:As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the Muslim Life Hackers podcast. I'm your host, Mifrah Mahroof. And this is the podcast where we get better every day through conversations with experts, leaders, and inspiring individuals. We're going to give you actionable insights to help you win in this life and the next. So if you're ready to level up in every area of your life, And if you're committed to living with excellence for the sake of your Lord. You're in the right place. Get ready for insights, inspiration, and a whole lot of life hacks. This is the Muslim Life Hackers podcast. Let's dive in.
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Mifrah Mahroof:As-salamu alaykum Dr. Mohamed, welcome to the show.
Mohamed Ghilan:Wa ʿalaykumu s-salāmu wa-raḥmatu-llāhi wa-barakātuh. Thanks for having me.
Mifrah Mahroof:Thank you so much for coming on. I'm looking forward to this episode. I've been following your Instagram during this whole, Gaza situation. And it's always been my go-to page really providing me insights about the spiritual dimensions on what's happening to our brothers and sisters and how that actually affects us on an individual basis. And so I really wanna learn more in this interview more about that. And first of all, before we start, I'd love for you to introduce yourself quickly. For our listeners who don't know you.
Mohamed Ghilan:My name is Mohamed Ghilhan. I'm currently, I got a couple of hats. So, people who follow my work know that, PhD in neuroscience, medical degree, currently an advanced trainee in, physical medicine and rehabilitation. working in Australia. On the other hand, I also have, Al-Andalus Academy where I teach, various traditional texts in Islamic tradition, covering areas in aqidah, theology, medici fiqh and, the dimension of purification of the heart or spirituality. I hold a weekly halaqah there that's live where I'm teaching currently the book of Illumination by Shaykh ibn Ata-illah Al-Shakandari and that's after having finished the hikam, the aphorisms of Shaykh ibn Ata-illah, so I do this on a weekly basis. that's pretty much in a nutshell, kind of what I do. Alhamdulillah, I'm married, two children, living life as best as I can. And just trucking along.
Mifrah Mahroof:May Allah accept it all from you.
Mohamed Ghilan:Ameen.
Mifrah Mahroof:one of the things we were speaking about before we hit the record button and I had to tell you to stop, because it was a very interesting conversation we were going into and, you mentioned about how we had, first of all, Masjid Al-Aqsa flood, and then it was trauma flood. So what did you actually mean by that?
Mohamed Ghilan:the point came up in the setting of, or in the context of mentioning that I was targeting, or I was attacking this issue from a different angle. And I was providing these kind of unique insights. And I was just saying that I don't think it's really that unique. It's just that the medium is the message. we had al-Aqsa flood, which is what the resistance called it, when they started this whole operation. And following that, we got the trauma flood. And the trauma flood was from all of the well-meaning activists and people that are looking to raise awareness about Palestine in general and Gaza specifically, and to try to get the world to see what the Zionists doing and try to, raise awareness about that. But unfortunately, if you look at, if those of you who are familiar with Neil Postman and I'm using ourselves to death, he talks about Neil Postman for the unaware, was a social commentator and had fantastic insights with regards to the modern technology and how that's changing society. And one of the things that he discussed was television and the news and just being able to be aware of things in real time about, situations far and away where you effectively have no control over it. And what we're witnessing today is you get all this in your feed and you're looking at it on your Instagram feed and Facebook and Twitter, what's happening to a brother and sisters in Gaza? And you effectively can't do anything about it. You're not in government, you are not in any position of power to do much other than raise awareness. And because there's just so much of it, it inundate you in significant ways. And then you start to feel this helplessness. You start to get depressed. You go through these stages of grief and the sad thing about it is you get to a point of acceptance, which is quite dangerous, that you go through this, you go through the denial and the anger and the negotiation, but then eventually you come to acceptance. And in acceptance. What you see as this drags on a hundred, 500, 600, 10 days is you see a lot of people just kind of going back to their daily lives. I think it's really, says something about our state when we can look at our Instagram feed and see the suffering in terms of the aftermath of a bombing and people starting to gather themselves, the injured people starving thousands upon thousands of people, going through the crowding around eight trucks. Just to get, some wheat so that they can make some bread. And then right after that you go into the next story, which is somebody just sharing like their breakfast or their brunch at some fancy restaurant. And then you go off and you have your food. And it's like, we don't even have the nauseating kind of feeling that we had at the very beginning. And that has to do with just sensitization. It's not that you are an an evil person or someone who's just doesn't care. It's just that you've become desensitized to all of it. You become habituated to seeing all of that. And so you just go back to your normal thing. And as part of that, because the activists are trying to raise awareness and they talk about Palestine, and there is a very interesting focus on the political and the ethnic dimension of this. This is an indigenous people to the land and this is their land and this is about an indigenous fight against the colonialist entities and blah blah blah and all of that. And all that is important, but quranically speaking, the land is Allah's. It's not anybody's you're entrusted with land.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Mohamed Ghilan:And so Allah says, inna l-arḍa lillahi yūrithuhā man yashāu min ʿibādihi wal-ʿāqibatu lil'muttaqīn, the land is Allah. He grants it, he inherited it to whomever he wants, he wills to any of his servants. And the final about, the final result, the final, success or whatever it is, is to the muttaqeen to the people of taqwa. And so the Quranic recipe for, Tamkin, which is this, having this power dominion, that you are given dominion over people, and to having land and to having success in this world, all of that is given in the Quran. And it has to do with first and foremost, having taqwa, that you have this. Taqwa is this conscious awareness of Allah and his power. It's not just a fear of the unknown, its fear of the known and an anxiety about that, but it's also. balanced by comfort in knowing the other attributes of Allah, about his mercy and his forgiveness. And you're in that, in-between stage of hope and fear. Taqwa is what, drives a behavior that is protective of oneself from the punishment of Allah in this world in the next. And so allah says that, Taqwa is what's gonna get you Taqwa is what's gonna get you power and dominion. Taqwa is what's gonna inherit you the land. And so this land of Palestine, the way that we look at it, it is not just like any other land. People say, oh, what about the Indian, and what about the Uighur, and what about the Kashmiri, and I was like, all that is important. But Palestine specifically, there is a different category for Palestine because it is not just about a dispute over land or a people fighting a colonialist entity. This is a religiously significant piece of land. And one of the problems that we have now is that this religious dimension is completely eliminated from the discourse in the popular sphere. It's talked purely about in political terms and anybody that, and what's interesting about this for me anyways, is the Zionists are, exploiting Judaism. So many Orthodox Jews reject Zionism, reject the state of Israel, reject all of this. And they are standing with us in the protests. But the Zionists are using religious language. They have rabbis that come on and give their version of Fatwas about this whole thing. They're employing Judaism to its full extent to try to assert their right to this land. And they're using religious discourse to do that. Meanwhile, for us as muslims, we're told that we should not be doing that. We're not allowed to use this. So many of us are too shy to even talk about it. And because we've had a period of time in which jihad the concept of jihad, and I'm talking about it in the sense of an armed struggle, has become so tarnished by all of the misguided works of a number of groups. And because of the nation state and because of the co-opting of the scholarly class under governments nowadays. So we don't have even people that understand what Jihad is anymore. And so all that combines together to give us kind of a sense of how we're talking about this, that when I talk and I sit down with teachers and I listen to other scholars talk about it, their discourse, what I'm bringing to my Instagram page, anyways, that's not me. That's just what traditional scholars are saying and that's how, and that's at things from a view. That's, that's how they're addressing this issue. And it is not negating the political of the political is there, but you have to acknowledge and really have a, Innamal a'malu bin niyat, actions are by intentions. And so you have to orient your intention appropriately and the intention has to be Allah SWT. We're not doing this for any other purpose. And that's why the last thing that I shared on my Instagram, feed was that scene from Kingdom of Heaven. I don't know if you saw that,
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah, I saw that one
Mohamed Ghilan:the end of that scene, the end of that movie is really profound because it, and it's stuck with me ever since I saw this movie is back in 2014 when Salah Hadin, the character was, he is asked like, what is Jerusalem worth? And he says, nothing, everything. this contrast these two things coming together. And that's the believer's position with regards to Dunya. What is Dunya worth? Nothing. Everything. Because it's nothing. It's a creation. It's contingent. It depends on Allah. it's worth nothing to me because I'm after Allah, but it's everything because Allah created me to be a vice jarn, to be a representative, to have responsibility to look after these things. So I'm doing it for the sake of Allah SWT. So it's worth everything at the same time. So my heart is attached with Allah, my body is in this world, and I'm supposed to be doing everything I can to do, to part, to carry out the responsibilities that have been given to me. And the same thing with Palestine and with the rest of the Muslim world. we really have to look at the situation in a very, and this idea. The other problem with looking at this is in an ethnic way, it has a kind of an insidious way of separating us from our Palestinian Muslim brothers and sisters. The prophet SAW said that this ummah is a single body. If a part of it is aching, the rest of the body comes to it with Shar and Huma with, insomnia and fever. We all have to have that. So if we're a single body, there's two ways to look at that. On the one hand is what they're going through should harm all of us. We should all be feeling just kind of in our guts, like internally just really moved, we should be restless. it's 115 days, whatever. I'm restless. I still can't get a proper night's sleep and I still can't look at anything in the world. In my personal experiences. I can't experience anything without thinking about people on Gaza. I can't look at helicopters flying overhead, when I see these helicopters that are coming, like where I live, sometimes you see helicopters going that like the, paramedics that are flying across or just planes coming to the airport and you just hear them.
Mifrah Mahroof:the same way as well
Mohamed Ghilan:I can't. I just, I see them and then all I think about is Zionists coming and bombing and firebombing and doing all of that, and I'm just thinking about people in Gaza so I can't, so that's, on the one hand, we experience the world differently now because of what they're going through. But on the other hand, and this is really The point that many of us don't pay attention to cancer as a disease, can have these insidious effects that impact the rest of your body in different ways. So you can have a type of a tumor that can result in a weakening of, and metastasize and result in harming other places in the body. But the source of the tumor is not necessarily in that. So primary versus a metastatic one. The primary source could be the lung, and then the metastasis could be the bones, for example. Right? I look at what's happening in Gaza as the tumor has metastasized. So Gaza is the metastasis. The primary source is not Gaza, it's in the rest of the ummah. We are the cause of what's happening in Gaza. Not that Gaza is the cause of what's happening to us or that we should, it's like we're doing a favor by being, oh, we're starting to raise awareness and we're starting to pay attention.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Mohamed Ghilan:no, no The primary tumor is somewhere else. It's not
Mifrah Mahroof:are feeling. Yeah. I think that's how people generally are feeling. It's like I'm doing a favor by raising awareness and,
Mohamed Ghilan:No. The problem is outside of Gaza, the problem is not inside of Gaza. Gaza is just a consequence of the primary source of the disease. And if you want to deal with the disease, you need to deal with the, it's like if you have, it's almost like, hepatic encephalopathy. This is a disorder in which, so hepatic meaning liver encephalopathy, meaning it's a pathology of the brain. So somebody with hepatic encephalopathy will be delirious, will have problems with their memory, they will not be aware of themselves that you might have all these kind of issues going on. That drives you to thinking, I wanna go do an MRI, I wanna do a CT scan. I wanted to investigate this neurologically. The problem is actually in the liver is because the liver function has become deranged and that resulted in an imbalance in their electrolytes and a buildup of toxins in their system'cause the liver is supposed to be the detoxification of the body along with the kidneys. But if you can't detoxify your body, poisons build up, toxins build up in your body, that now has a downstream effect that ends up, impacting other organs, including the brain. So the brain starts to manifest in your behavior. Something that like, what's happening to this person? Someone who's looking at the final effect. They might think the problem is in the brain, but if you do a full workup, you find out actually the problem is in liver. Well, from a Muslim body perspective as a Muslim, ummah, as a Muslim body, I'm looking at Gaza as like a hepatic encephalopathy. You are looking at Gaza and you're thinking this is an issue with the Zionist and Gaza and all of that. But the issue actually is with us outside of it, what is the rest of the ummah doing that is resulting in this?'cause Jerusalem and Palestine is like a litmus test
Mifrah Mahroof:That's true.
Mohamed Ghilan:for the rest of the Ummah. So what's happening in the rest of the ummah that's resulting in this taking place in Gaza right now? The Gazans, they've done their part and then some. That's why I disagree with this whole discourse of like purifier ourselves. You know, what's the resistance doing you? What has that gained your No, no. They're actually fulfilling an obligation jihad upon them. And I'm talking about an armed struggle and anybody that is academically honest about this and studies the books of Fiqh would recognize that what the resistance in Palestine is doing is they're fulfilling an obligation. And that obligation does not wait for you to have all the right number of weapons and the armaments and the parity with your opposition.'cause that's not one of the conditions that Allah states in the Quran that you have to have. Allah says, prepare what you can in terms of arms. That's what he says. he doesn't say have parity with your enemies, because Allah will provide the parity. Allah will support you. You do what you gotta do and be sincere in your intention. Allah will support you. So they're doing what they need to do and we're witnessing in real time their response to trauma. Losing their children, losing their families, losing their livelihoods, all of that stuff. And their reflexive response as they're coming out, literally out of, as they're coming out of the rubble is, Hasbunallahu wa ni’mal wakeel, Allah sufficient for us. So that tells you that spiritually, these people are ready. They've been prepared. They know exactly what they need to do, and they're doing it. So there is not an issue with their faith. Allah selected those people.'cause the beloved SAW told us that that land is a blessed land and that the best land of revolt, which is resistance, armed resistance, and to have, stations is Askalam, which is that area, Gaza's included in Askalam. So they've done their part. There's no, anybody that puts any focus on the faith and the belief and the readiness of the Palestinians has got it twisted. So then you gotta zoom out and go, okay, what's the problem? If this is a type of, like a hepatic encephalopathy situation, then we gotta look at what the rest of the body is doing, what's going on with the liver of this ummah? Because it's not there. I look at that area maybe as like the brain. Now this is what's happening here. What's happening with the rest of the ummah and the rest of the ummah has built up so many toxins in the way that we practice and the way that we live our lives. Not just practice the religion the way that we live our lives, that we need to look internally. And that's what, that post that I wrote on Radical Boycott is about. We have to get back to the drawing board and go like, okay, Allah did promise victory, but Allah also said he's not going to change the condition of the people until they change what's within themselves. And the Gazans are saying like, where's all the Arabs? And where all the Muslims and the Muslims outside are saying what's happening with the world? And how come, I mean the brazenness of the Zionists as they go and attack is, is really jaw dropping. they will have the International Court Justice basically say that you're committing genocide. They haven't ruled on it, but the direction of their movement is you guys are like, you're doing genocide. It's, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and flies like a duck, it's a duck. You're doing genocide. and the Zionists are saying, we'll, forget you. We're gonna do whatever we wanna do. We're gonna continue doing our thing. So what is that about? How come the rest of the world is, and after that happens, then they cut off funds to the biggest source of employment and support and aid for the Gazas, the UN war, and not just the Gazans, by the way, the West Bank as well. So all Palestinian refugees are gonna be armed by this. they all cut off the aid to this particular, the funding to this organization. And then people was like, what is going on? What's going on is there's a lot of purification going on that Allah SWT is doing on our behalf because we're not doing it for ourselves. You know, there's a, one of the hikam of Syaikh ibn Ata-illah is whoever doesn't come to Allah SWT with submission, Allah will bring you forth with the chains of tribulation. It's either you come willingly to this and you submit willingly, or Allah will force you to submit. If you are one of the people that Allah wants to bring it into the garden, and there's gonna be people, the prophet SAW says adjuvant, there's, it's a wonder to the state of some people, they're literally dragged into the garden. They don't wanna go. And, Allah grants his wisdom. Sorry, I just went on to hold rant there.
Mifrah Mahroof:So I have a few things to actually jump on that rant, and actually ask further about it. So at the start, you mentioned how we're going through stages of grief and you were saying how we are very sad by it. And then we come to a point of acceptance and you say, that's very dangerous. And so I guess the question that comes up, like, when I speak to friends and everyone, like some people will be like, Hey, life goes on. What can we do? And others are like, really sad about it, that they just can't really do much in their life. And like, I guess the question is like, where's the balance? how you're supposed to live, or is it that? Like, I've seen people just like live as normal, but they just don't post on social media.
Mohamed Ghilan:this is not a call to, being in a state of depression all the time. And I was like, it's like learn from the Gazans. What are the Gazans doing? You see videos of them coming out, they're still celebrating birthdays. Some of them who had been planning to get married and they had all these, wedding plans and all of that stuff because of the situation, they're not able to, so they just do it in the, in one of the refugee camps. And they just do it very simply and they continue and they say, and there's a, very common saying amongst the Gazans, uh, i. we love life so long as we have a way to actually getting life. Like, so there, still, and there's a couple of comedians even, running around on Instagram in Gaza in the middle of Gaza in the middle of all of this. One of them is a young man, Abud, he's mocking the Zionist in his reporting. And there's another one who's actually like a professional comedian, entertainer and Gaza, and he is going around and he's showing things and he's, and he's still trying to bring joy to people. And so they're doing it despite all of that. This is not a call to stop having joy in your life and to, beloved SAW in Hadith. It's mentioned that he comes and he found the companions all laughing. They were just kind of joking and jovial and just having a good time. And he said, if you knew what I knew, you would've weeped much and laughed little. And so there was like this big cloud of doom and gloom just came upon all of them. Jibril came down right away why would Jibril come down? Wa maa natanazzalu illaa bi amri rabbik, in surah Maryam Allah SWT tells us tells us that Jibril doesn't come down except for by the command of his Lord.'cause prophet SAW asked him, why don't come visit? And Jibril said, I don't come only through command. So Jibril comes down immediately and this, you have a time for this and a time for that. These are human beings, they have to have these times of just letting go look at how much they've suffered to begin with, just to be with you come along on this journey. For them to sit down together and have a good time. you're not meant to actually come in and give him goom doom and gloom. So the same thing for us, Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, what you should see from Gaza is what gratitude is like and how you should have gratitude. And so you should be reflecting on all of the things. When I see the planes and I hear the noise and all of that, yeah, I think about Gaza, but at the same time I follow that with, Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, that I'm granted the safety and security for I'm at, I don't have to worry about all any of that stuff. When I go in with family and I say Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, I could see my family, I'm not wondering where they are and what happened to them, and I'm not worried about some rocket coming down overnight and blowing us all up. I'm not having a conversation with my family about let's all sleep together so that if we die, we'll all die together. that doesn't calculate, So I have the gratitude of that. Yeah. I have the awareness of it. And then what should that drive you to do? You shouldn't be driven into total despair and inaction. Each one of us has an ability to act in a particular way. What is available to us? what's our role in this, this situation, in the immediate sense of it, in terms of actions directed at it. Right now, the Palestinians, the resistance, they're doing their part with the arm resistance. What's our part? Our part is the social media, raising awareness with people, writing, publishing things, sharing things from the Palestinians that are sharing things so that we elevate their platform. And Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, from a public opinion point of view, we've won this. They've done the analysis, looking at the hashtags and the posts and the shares, and what is the volume of things that are in support of Palestine and what is the volume of things in support of the Zionist entity. There is not even a comparison. So we're doing our part and we have to continue doing our part in that sense. That's in the immediate kind of like directed at it, but then at a grand scale, okay, well I'm contributing to this in a particular way. What's my contribution? My contribution is whatever. in terms of how are in ribawi type of situations. Are you actually engaging in this user system? Because Allah SWT tells us that. when it comes to riba and usury, that's the only crime he declare. He declares war. So you're not at war with the Zionist entity. You are war with Allah and his messenger. When you engage in this because of your engagement in ribawi transactions, the entire world has tells us that the entire world, we're gonna have the dust of riba touch all of us. There's a difference between I'm compelled because I don't have a choice.'cause that's how the general system is and. I just wanna buy stuff that I can't afford, so I'm gonna go get a credit card. You
Mifrah Mahroof:So I know that you mentioned this in your post radical boycott about the financial system, and so is it? Well, there's a few ways to look at this. The whole financial system today is built on riba. So doesn't mean, are you trying to say get out of the financial system or is it just credit cards that you are saying?
Mohamed Ghilan:I'm saying that you have to look at, your spending habits and how you're
Mifrah Mahroof:the
Mohamed Ghilan:habits.
Mifrah Mahroof:consumerism,
Mohamed Ghilan:Well, consumerism drives the system. So you have to look at what you're spending on and how that is contributing to the system in the way that you've arranged your finances. So for many people, they decide that I wanna get some material things that are outside my means. My salary, my thing, I can't afford to have this thing, so I'm gonna go and get user transaction type, engagements with the bank in terms of loans and credit cards and all of that so that I can do this thing where I can buy it and then be able to look like I can afford it, even though I can't afford it, so that I can keep up with the Joneses
Mifrah Mahroof:Oh,
Mohamed Ghilan:you contributing to That that's your contribution. That is a willing contribution. I've had people text me and email me back and say, like, I've heard other things about credit cards, if you're intending to pay it off before the interest is calculated, then it's okay. I'm like, no, no, no. It's still not okay because you're entering into a contract in which you have signed, you have agreed to the terms of the contract and the terms of the contract are that you agree you will pay interest usury in the event you're not able to pay. The money you borrowed to buy this item. Well, you are not guaranteed tomorrow. You don't know if you're gonna live or not. You don't know if you're gonna get the income tomorrow or not. You are making a presumption that I have the money so I can just buy it. And the reason I got the credit card is because I wanna get points so that I can go and buy trips and whatever with these points. The contract itself that you signed is facet, it's an invalid contract from sharia point of view, and you engaged in it and you're supporting this entity, this bank that is, it's like a vulture, it's a vampire feeding on the blood of people who can't afford things so that you can get some points so that you can go and do material things. This is the issue, so we have to think a little bit.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. I like speaking about credit, cards. It reminds me of how I heard about credit cards is one of the in industries that actually causes a lot of people to commit suicide because they can't pay off their loans.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing, we're doing a lot of things even in the companies that we buy things from, like, so we've done the boycotts, that's great. You're identifying companies that are contributing to settlements, that are contributing to the Israeli economy, to Zionist, to entities economy. And so you want to damage that and harm that. And we're doing some good work in that front. And I would say definitely continue on that and identify all these companies, but we have to go deeper. And Allah tells us he's not gonna change the general external condition of a people. And we as muslims are a people Until we change what's within ourselves.
Mifrah Mahroof:how do we do that?
Mohamed Ghilan:Well, it's basically getting into these things. You have to it's like, Hasibu Qabla Antuhasabu count yourselves as of people of the graves and take yourselves into account. We have to have a bit of honest reflection into how we're running our lives. And if you're engaged in transactions, you should not be engaging in. You need to come up with a plan in order for you to get out of these transactions and vow to never return to it again. if you can't afford a particular lifestyle, then don't try to afford it by borrowing so that you can afford it. You're not affording it. So just, you know, as they say, uh, extend your, blanket to the length of your legs. So this is one dimension of it. The other dimension of it is we are so at al wahn the prophet SAW says, uh, the umam will gather upon you and will eat from you. like a, it's like a moths will eat from the stuff and the companions ask like, is it because of our weakness? is it because we're few? And he's also said, but alkathir, but no, there's many of you, there's a lot of you. There's 2 billion of us. But what's wrong with us? We're like, this, come on top of the ocean. There's no way to us. Why is that? It's not'cause we're not organizing and we're not collaborating. No, it's because we love dunya too much. And so you have, one of the things that I've found quite fascinating is the number of Muslims that are just too afraid to say anything online, or in person or to attend protests because they're worried about their livelihood. Look.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Mohamed Ghilan:You have in the Hadith you've been promised, your sustenance is already guaranteed. Nobody is going to reduce from it. Anything that is not meant to be reduced from it, it's calculated to the last penny. Everything is already set up for you. So what are you supposed to do? Speak the truth. engage, do what you can to raise awareness. Don't be an idiot. you don't like, be smart in the way that you and be, sophisticated in the way you address things and speak with knowledge and don't share, things without verification. And don't try to be subsidiary or inflammatory. more than what is the subject is gonna, inflame anyways. the issue is already inflammatory so you don't have to add to it, like fuel to the fire. Just discuss it from the point of fact and raise awareness about it and do your part. And don't worry about, oh, but I'm gonna lose my livelihood. Look at what the resistance is doing. Talk about losing your livelihood. They're risking their life and limb, to try to free. It's not just about freeing land. They actually spoke about defending Al Aqsa Mosque. The number one thing for them, and we're not even thinking about Al Aqsa for many people this issue is about Palestine and the resistance is talking about Al Aqsa. Just the fact that the resistance is talking about Al Aqsa, and we're talking about Palestine, and for them Palestine is reason number two. That should tell you something about like, are we aligned even with the resistance on this matter?
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. I remember you mentioned in, one of your works online about how the situation in Aqsa actually reflects what is the state of the ummah, and I know you mentioned it earlier as well, and. How right now it's not actually being treated well, and so that's why, that was one of the reasons for what happened.
Mohamed Ghilan:Well, the Zionists have already There's reports about this and they talk about this openly. That's the mind boggling thing about all of this is they're very open about all of it. They talk about it in religious terms, like nobody's business. They've bought a piece of land upon which, that was perfectly located and situated to overlook where Al Aqsa is because that's where the Temple of Solomon, allegedly was built. and it's that location, that piece of land that they bought and cultivated. This is where they're going to sacrifice their red heifers. And so they wanna bought these red heifers and they announced this back like it is, and they're raising these red heifers and they brought'em in from Texas and they're pure red heifers with no, even white hair on top of them. And they were actually genetically engineered as one of the things that I've come across potentially just to make sure that it's the perfect red heifer to, to slaughter and sacrifice. And then they're doing all these rituals and things. For the past few weeks, Muslims have not been able to pray Jummah in Al Aqsa because they've already started this business of dividing time for when Muslims and when Jews get to go in, into that area. And they've been slowly dismantling the foundation of that area so that Al Aqsa can collapse on itself, can just be destroyed, and all of that for a religious purpose. Now, Al Aqsa is a house of Allah. Imagine that. Imagine like Muslims are not allowed to go into Mecca
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Mohamed Ghilan:to go into Medina, like not permitted to pray Jummah.
Mifrah Mahroof:That be.
Mohamed Ghilan:just the thought of that and then it's like, okay, this is exactly what's happening in Al Aqsa, and Al Aqsa is one of the three mosques mentioned in the Hadith that, La tushadu alrihal, you don't take your stuff and go and travel except to three mosques and one of them Muslims have not been able to pray Jumaah for a few weeks already. And Muslims under 40, they're not allowed to go in there and they're doing all these insidious things around it so that they can destroy it. Just take your mind and think about like what if that was happening in Medina and what if that was happening in Mecca? it's just baffling and the reaction you should have is like, Subhanallah, okay. A house of Allah and Allah does not want any of the Muslims to go and pray jummah there
Mifrah Mahroof:that will cause a, yeah.
Mohamed Ghilan:yeah, but now just to think about like, okay, Allah, this is his house and he doesn't want any Muslim to come to Al Aqsa. The mosque in which the beloved SAW came and led all the messengers in the prophets in prayer. The location from which he ascended to receive the commandment for the pillar of this religion, this spot, Allah, does not want any Muslim to come and pray. Jumaah in, forget about like the Zionists are preventing and all of that'cause they're creations of Allah and Allah is using them as a means to prevent us from coming to pray in his house. That right there should make you tremble. Like why is Allah preventing Muslims? Forget about Palestinians. Muslims are not allowed to go and pray Jummah. That should really make you reflect, what am I doing that Allah does not want me to go into his house? Event hough I say La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah and I pray the five daily prayers and I do my adhkar, and do all of my and all of that. Yet I'm not in a state in which Allah would permit me to go into this masjid.
Mifrah Mahroof:It's
Mohamed Ghilan:Alright, Subhanallah, that should really send us in for like a moment of silence, a pause, a reflection, go into a state of fear, trepidation. Think about like, what am I not doing or doing that is resulting in this, because the Zionists are creations. They don't have power. they have no power of their own accord. They're contingent beings, and they're not able to do anything without Allah's permission. So if Allah erects them as an obstacle, preventing them, and Allah, uses whatever he wants in his creation. He's using these people to prevent us from going into his house.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah, that's a very heavy question that we need to sit and think about really.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah. I, don't have an answer for it, but it's something that really is, to say concern me is, an understatement of the century, like to say that's concerning.
Mifrah Mahroof:of course. I wanna go back to that point you said about Wahn and the love of Dunya, and what other ways have you seen it? Come up in an individual that, in a way that we don't even think about. Like how you were saying about people are afraid to speak online or speak
Mohamed Ghilan:this is just sort of a political dimension, but like, you can see it in our day-to-Day lives. Like just the way that we, just in our own personal transactions with people, like if it comes to business transactions and how we, nickel and dime each other and the way that we, withhold payments that we shouldn't be withholding, the way that inheritance is treated between family members and how they go and go about doing things. And how oppression takes place in that front. I mean, it's to these little things like you have to, circle of influence and like Stephen Covey's, the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, the circle of influence and the circle of concern. We are always talking about the circle of concern. what's happening over in Palestine and what's taking place over in Kashmir, and it's like, oh, this is a circle of concern. We are all concerned about all these things, but what's happening in your circle of influence? How are you? Carrying out your tasks and duties at your work, which you're getting paid for, and this is money that you're supposed to be earning in the Halal Way, and is it halal for you to be earning money that you did not perform the work that you were tasked to do? Many of us. Can you really say that you are, are you, engaging in, uh, Qathî`atur-Rahim, you know, cutting off your kinship ties? And I'm not talking about toxic kind of situations. I'm talking about just like there's no legitimate reason for you to cut family off in this particular city setting, and you are now, like, how are you on that front? How are you on the front of, fulfilling your duties and obligations to your family members? Your, like for the men out there, like your responsibilities to your household and for the women, the same thing. You know, like, are you actually like circle of influence, circle of concern? Are you elevating the status of the circle of concern in your. Consciousness to the point where your circle of influence, where things that you actually do have control over are not getting the attention that they need to get. And you're focusing on everything else that you actually can't do anything about in the immediate term. And it really starts off with, if you fix, it's a kind of an acknowledged understanding of sociology. If you wanna look at the state of a country, you need to go down all the way to the root of it, which is the family, what's happening at the family unit, and are all the rights and responsibilities being fulfilled and carried out? And if they're not, you'll see dysfunction in the family, then you'll see dysfunction in the community and then dysfunction in the general country as a whole. And that's really what we're seeing. Like, How about Dunya, I can't forget the story. an acquaintance of mine had mentioned to me previously, he's Algerian and he was at a funeral and this woman's son. Jumped into the grave and undid her funeral shroud just to get her hand out, her thumb out so that he can stamp the deed for the land so that it would go to him. I
Mifrah Mahroof:Whoa.
Mohamed Ghilan:yeah. So what state? And the thing is like you would go like, whoa, this is shocking. But there are many cases of something in the same gravity as that happening across the Muslim community. And so we're not looking for holier than thou kind of the perfect society here, by the way, but Sahaba. There were the drunkards amongst them. There were the people who had problematic situations and issues. There was even the ones who, from Bader, who actually tried to warn his family that they're all coming to Mecca and it was taken as a type of an act of treason, but he was still forgiven for it because his intention was not to destroy the Muslims. His intention was to try to save his family, and he miscalculated and didn't really think this through, but the Sahaba were not a perfect bunch. You know, they had, but the overall, the overwhelming number of them was actually, and they were good and they were all intent. The reason there's sahaba is because they all had. Even if they came up short, they had this high aspiration. they were created to be the companions of the beloved SAW because they were cut from a different cloth. They're a different kind of element, different gem compared to the rest of human beings. And so even if they were had shortcomings, they still had the proper intention. And even if they had, some of them had dunya and the Quran even speaks about some of them in uhud, Dunya, for some of them that turned back and went and tried to collect the war booty, that was Dunya and that was part of the defeat. And they were all shocked afterwards. Like, whoa, some of us actually want Dunya. Yeah, some of you still want dunya, you're still companions, you're still elevated. Your station is still high, but some of you are still working on yourselves and you need to do a bit more work. So they still had that. But what the prophet SAW describe it as, you know, when you have evil just really spread across the community to a point where it just overwhelms it.
Mifrah Mahroof:Mm,
Mohamed Ghilan:Then that's the issue. And I think that's where we're at right now. which is again, why Allah SWT wouldn't let us go into Al Aqsa Mosque now.
Mifrah Mahroof:because evil does become very widespread, that's why
Mohamed Ghilan:yes, evil has become widespread. And again, it's not necessarily'cause people are evil in themselves, it's just that we've gotten into such a state of headlessness. Gaza has been a great awakening for a lot of people. And that awakening cannot be kind of a transient thing. It has to be coupled with a fundamental change in one's orientation and focus with regards to Dunya and Akhirah that you are a travel, you recognize yourself as a traveler in this dunya and that your focus is on Akhirah and Allah SWT. And in everything that you do, you're trying to do it with that intention in your mind that how is this going? Every action you do on a daily basis recognize that it is something that you're gonna be asked about, Allah's gonna ask you about this on a day of judgment. So you have to have a good answer for why you're doing certain things. So if you did that on a daily basis and really reflected on these things and recognized that, you know, a thief that steals a million dollars, that's part of the risk, that's part of their sustenance. It was written for them that they're gonna get a million dollars. The problem with them is they had haste, they went about it through illegitimate means. So if you knew that, Okay, if I'm gonna get a million dollars, I'm gonna get a million dollars. But I'm not gonna go and think that I'm gonna get it through the lottery, and I'm not gonna go through embezzlement and cheating. I'm just gonna keep my nose to the ground, grind away and do my thing. And whether I get it or not is up to Allah, but I'm not gonna have haste and try to outstrip what is coming to me by doing something illegitimate. And the practical way to deal with this is you need to study of Fiqh and by I don't just mean study your rulings of prayer, and wudhu, and fasting, I mean also do the other part, which is the more significant part, Ahkam al muamalat, you know, the transactional laws.
Mifrah Mahroof:transactions.
Mohamed Ghilan:that has to do with your marriage. That has to do with your inheritance, that has to do with your, merchant, work. If you're a trader. That has to do with your zakat as well, which is, it sits in between kind of the, Ibadatan muamalat,'cause you gotta figure out how to calculate this thing. So it's like you have to really studying Islam unfortunately, is not something Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. And I guess you could only know what to look for in your life once you have the knowledge as well. So it
Mohamed Ghilan:the
Mifrah Mahroof:both goes hand in hand.
Mohamed Ghilan:and once you go through all of that, and, and especially studying, like when you study Aqida many people study Aqida with view that they just need to reproduce a text from memory or to just kind of study it so that they can, teach it or whatever. But the reason you study Aqida is not because you need to memorize a collection of articles of faith that you know, and. Phrases and statements that have been pent together by a scholar. The reason you study this is because it gives you perspective on the nature of the world and its relationship to Allah and your relationship to Allah and your relationship to the world, and establishes your position in the word of Ali ezat begovich, through the expression of Ali Ezat Begovich. The human being has a window between the scene and the unseen, and so when you experience things happening in the world, if you study Aqida properly, you will filter that experience through Aqida perspective, Aqida lens. And so when you see Gaza Palestine, anything else that's happening at a grand scale or in your own personal life. Things that are happening to you at work, school, family, whatever it is, everything becomes filtered through this lens of Aqida, which is not just a set of statements that you repeat from memory, but an actual lived experience.
Mifrah Mahroof:So it's like So it's like a God-given, view to the world. A God, sorry, God
Mohamed Ghilan:it's a God centric, it's a God centric view of the world. and recognizing that Allah SWT is the one running all of this. Nobody and nothing in creation does anything without his permission. And so the focus in this particular situation with Palestine is no longer the Zionist. The focus becomes, these are erected creations of Allah that are doing all of these things. We gotta work through and figure out, diagnostically speaking, from a'cause I'm a physician, work backwards. Like how did you get to this point? What is the cause of this? So that you can deal with and, Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, nothing while you're in this Dunya is considered terminal from an Islamic kind of perspective. It is not a, death diagnosis. It's a diagnosis that we have a solution for. We have a rectification for it. There's medicine for all of this, and the medicine really stems back. It goes back to like, okay, what do I need to fix in terms of my own kind of life? And share that so that others can do the same thing. So then you can create this ripple effect where the rest of the community takes that on and then you have that grand scale change.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. So the change would start with us,
Mohamed Ghilan:It always starts with us
Mifrah Mahroof:individual, and that kind of ripples on. Yeah.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:For sure. Subhanallah, so I guess like what really comes down to is God-centered worldview, and that comes through knowledge of Allah SWT learning the aqida, and then also learning about how we are going with that day-to-day transactions and things that go beyond just rulings of prayer and the basic, rituals that we have in our life.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah, it's the aqida what we believe the names of Allah SWT,'cause there are manifestations to these names in the world. Just recognizing like every time you see something happening, it's a manifestation of one of the divine attributes in the world without suspension of the other attributes is just one becomes more prominent, one becomes more obvious to us. And looking at how we personally, at a personal level are doing things, and just setting things right as best as we can and not focusing on the outcome okay, if I do all of these things, then success will come right after. You're not doing it because of an outcome. You're doing it'cause that's what Allah SWT wants of you. That's what you're expected to do. The outcome is with Allah, and you might be around to see the outcome. You may not be around to see the outcome. It's irrelevant. I'm doing it because that's what Allah SWT expects of me, and I ask that Allah accepts. I check my intention and make sure that it's sincere for the sake of Allah.'cause If I'm focusing on the outcome, that means that I'm doing it for the sake of the outcome, which is a type of a hidden polytheism of hidden idolatry. That I'm doing all of these things spiritually and religiously speaking because I'm seeking the outcome that comes out of it in the dunya. And that becomes a problem in its own. And that's why these things are subtle. And you need to have teachers,
Mifrah Mahroof:because you're relying on yourself
Mohamed Ghilan:well, it's idolatry because the reason you're in service of the outcome. You're not in service of Allah. That's where idolatry comes.
Mifrah Mahroof:right.
Mohamed Ghilan:you have to pay attention to why you're doing certain things and what you're trying to get out of'em. And recognize that the outcome is something that is, it's gonna come about anyways. However, Allah wants it to come about. What's important is your intention and why you did certain things and that you're doing the work and you're doing, what's important is that you're engaging in the process regardless of what outcome comes out of it. And when Allah promises certain outcomes, they're not contingent upon it will happen within this timescale. so anyways, you're doing it for the sake of Allah. You're regardless of the outcome, and none of these outcomes that Allah promises in Quran are contingent on certain timescales. If you do this, this, this, and that, then 10 days later you'll get this result that's not there. You're doing them and a lot deals with the outcomes, and you're happy and satisfied, and the only thing that concerns you is not the outcome. What concerns you is the sincerity in your intention and the acceptance of Allah of your work. Not that the work is gonna result in anything.
Mifrah Mahroof:Sincerity of intentions and acceptance that Allah SWT accepts that
Mohamed Ghilan:that's what matters
Mifrah Mahroof:we should be concerned about. Yeah.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah. Not that you're waiting for certain outcomes to happen. All that, and regardless, Allah promises you do all these things. I'll give you success in this world. On the next, you'll have all of it. You
Mifrah Mahroof:it's really about letting go and I think.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. I think that's hard for us because it's like we were raised in these societies where it's very result driven, result oriented. We rely on ourselves for outcomes and kind of rewiring that into that God centric worldview. It's gonna take a lot of work on our part.
Mohamed Ghilan:Well, we're all, in a sense, this is the, empiricism that has taken over this world. We're also a victim to it because with empiricism, you think that the means drive the outcome. And if I follow steps, 1, 2, 3, then I get to
Mifrah Mahroof:Mm-Hmm.
Mohamed Ghilan:conclusion. And they're all connected necessarily. And none of that is true. these are habits of the mind. It's just routines of the world that take place, and knowing that the outcome is gonna come about regardless. Turns you are carrying outta the intentions more of to be an action of adab with Allah SWT, that this is an action of just proper comportment and decorum with Allah and respect for the fact that he created the world with wisdom and that there are certain steps that should be taken in order for outcomes to happen. And that none of this is a magic trick. and so you do that for the sake of Allah SWT and it becomes, I'm doing this as an act of worship because Allah expects me to do it, not because it's gonna lead to some outcome in this dunya that's gonna be beneficial to me.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah, I see. It makes a lot of sense. we're actually getting closer to the end of this interview. I would love you more questions, but I know it's near hour. I think I can learn more and more from you. But, I'm respectful of your time. I have a few last questions that I ask all I guests and I'd be interested to know this question in terms of our discussion that we are having right now. So the first one is, What's one life hack that's helped you improve your life? So, I guess in the context of what's happening right now, what has helped you
Mohamed Ghilan:I would say, removing oneself from having expectations. I guess, dropping expectations is a great life hack. dropping expectations because when you have expectations, you set yourself up for disappointment. Expectations are born out of an arrogant assessment of one's knowledge about the world and thinking that certain outcomes are better than others. And so that's where you get these expectations. It's best to just, relegate all that to the wise, Allah SWT, Al-Hakeem. And so when you don't have expectations, that actually improves your life all around because you enter into the state of kind of blissful surprise, with every good thing that happens. not a day goes by except that I just, when I reflect back, like, Subhanallah, I couldn't plan my life better than what Allah SWT has chosen the way that he has chosen things. The places that I've been and the things that I've seen and the experiences that I've had. when I was younger, had dreams and aspirations of certain things. Looking back at them now, I was like, what? Silly boy. Like none of that matches to what I have now. And so just to be in a state of gratitude instead of,'cause expectations also can breed in gratitude. It's better to just drop expectations by the way, I should just, I always need to clarify this. When I say dropping expectations or stop the work and all that, I'm talking about the state of the heart. You can work towards something externally with your limbs, but your heart is in a state of contentment and lack
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. Contentment with the present.
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah. Contentment with the present.'cause that's really all you have at the moment. You only have this moment
Mifrah Mahroof:right now but what about expecting from Allah SWT like expecting good from him and expecting the answer to your dua, for example?
Mohamed Ghilan:when you say the answer for the dua, like you're told that the dua can be accepted in various ways. And now like, are you expecting to restrict the answer to come in a particular way? If you have an expectation of good from Allah, everything that comes from Allah SWT is good. With every constriction, there is expansion as well, so you can focus on the wrong thing and that can drive certain expectations. Or you could just say, Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, regardless, you're kind of in a steady state with Allah SWT, regardless of what's happening. And that steady state is a state of contentment. Now, if something is cast into your heart and Allah, grants you like, all of us get certain ideas that come about all of a sudden, and you have this desire that builds up in your heart, and that desire now drives your tongue to move with Dua. That is because Allah SWT has already written this thing for you, and he's just moved you to ask for it as an act of worship. So your Dua becomes an act of worship for the sake of Dua, not for the sake of what the Dua results in. So if you have something cast in your heart, Allah is too generous to cast something into your heart and not granted to you. So there is kind of, not so much of an expectation, but an assurity that if Allah said, if Allah has put this in my heart and I'm asking for it, and Allah's promised in in the Quran that he's gonna respond, then I'm definitely getting this thing. And I don't have any doubt about that. So there's never any disappointment with that particular aspect. It only comes about in terms of are you bringing in yourself into this expectation? It needs to happen at this time scale. It needs to happen in this particular way. That's when you get disappointed.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It does make life more easier
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:you don't carry that burden around. Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Alamin, awesome. And my final question is, what's one book that's helped you level up in your life?
Mohamed Ghilan:the cliched answer one would say is the Quran. but I'll add
Mifrah Mahroof:And then I'll say it back to you. Oh, and what's the second one? then say The Sunna. I don't know,
Mohamed Ghilan:Iqazhul Iqazhul Al Himam fi Syarhil Hikam, Shaykh Ibn Ajibah, commentary on, the hikam, so the hikam generally the aphorism Shaykh ibn Ata-illah Al-Shakandari by themselves are just these profound kind of distilled explanations of, theological and metaphysical concepts. So when you read anything that I write in the post and stuff, that's actually all influenced by an understanding of the hikam that's being applied into something about the world. Y
Mifrah Mahroof:Right.
Mohamed Ghilan:the, awakening the Resolve by Shaykh Ibn Ajiba, his commentary on that text is even more gems upon gems, in explaining the hikam themselves and deriving lessons from them. And so both of them together have really shifted my impression and perspective in ways that, I can't think of any other book that would've done it. And the hikam, many of the scholars say if anything was permissible to recite inside Salah inside the prayer other than the Quran, it would've been the hikam. And once you study the hikam you really get it.
Mifrah Mahroof:you're actually teaching a class on that, aren't you?
Mohamed Ghilan:Yeah, I did an intensive where I went through the 25 themes of the hikam. So the entire hikam I have, as far as I know at this moment, on February 3rd, 2024, the only full translation and commentary in video for the 264 aphorisms of Shaykh ibn Ata-illah that's available. 90 sessions of them at Al Andalus Academy, for those who have not gone through it with me.'cause I did that over two and a half years. Live everyone day I was teaching this
Mifrah Mahroof:Wow.
Mohamed Ghilan:Alhamdulillah we finished that. I did an intensive for those who haven't gone through it or may not have the time to go through it. I have an intensive where I go through about four and a half hours, the 25 themes that the hikam cover, and I selected about 52, I think, of the 264 that I thought represented, these various themes and went through them with students who have not gone through the hikam, just to give you a kind of a comprehensive understanding of all of it and how you can practically apply that in your spiritual development. And so that's the course I did, I ran a couple weeks ago. I'm planning to do it again and probably, after Ramadan In shaa Allah. But, the recordings of it are available for those who are interested, to go onto to Al Andalus Academy's website.
Mifrah Mahroof:Awesome. Well, for our listeners, we'll have a link to that in the show notes so they can be able to learn more as well about that. But thank you so much for coming on tonight. I really appreciate it.
Mohamed Ghilan:Barakallahu Feekum, It was really nice. May Allah grant you success, In shaa Allah
Mifrah Mahroof:Ameen, thank you.
Mifrah Mahroof - Podcast Ending:Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of the Muslim Life Hackers podcast. I really hope you enjoyed our chat today and got some great takeaways from it. If you like what you heard and don't want to miss out on our next conversations, hit that subscribe button. It really means a lot to us and helps us grow the show. And you know what? If you're feeling extra generous today, drop us a review or a rating. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you again for tuning in until next time, keep striving and getting better every day.
