Muslim Life Hackers
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Muslim Life Hackers
Gemi Hartojo: Understanding Feminine Energy and Overcoming Burnout
In this episode, business coach Gemi Hartojo explores why high-achieving women face burnout in the workplace. The conversation covers the differences in masculine and feminine energy in the workplace and practical strategies to find flow and fulfillment in both professional and personal settings.
Timestamps:
01:35 Challenges Faced by High Achieving Women
04:04 Understanding Masculine and Feminine Energy in the Workplace
15:25 Finding Your Zone of Genius
28:46 Balancing Family and Personal Time
29:35 The Concept of Time in Islam
32:46 Parenting Challenges and Strategies
36:57 Respect and Boundaries with Children
42:58 Embracing Feminine Energy and Chaos
About Gemi Hartojo:
Gemi Hartojo (Guh-mee, Harr-Toyo), is a trained and certified business coach from the Co-Active Training Institute (CPCC) and ACC credentialed by the ICF; who guides business leaders, entrepreneurs, and their teams to become highly effective individuals and groups, cultivating positive, inclusive, and psychologically safe environments.
Connect with Gemi Hartojo:
Resources Mentioned:
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🏖️ This episode is sponsored by Sisters Explore, a company I founded to offer guided small-group travel for Muslim women to connect, explore, and enjoy faith-centered journeys. Learn more at http://www.sisters-explore.com
Disclaimer: Some links in this description are affiliate links.
We have been given a gift that we didn't ask for, from Allah that is specific to us that makes us truly unique. There's literally only one of you in this world.
Mifrah Mahroof:As-salamu alaykum and welcome to the Muslim Life Hackers podcast. I'm your host Mifrah Mahroof, and this is the podcast where we get better every day. Through conversations with experts, leaders, and inspiring individuals. We're going to give you actionable insights to help you win in this life and the next. So if you're ready to level up in every area of your life and you committed to living with excellence for the sake of your Lord. You're in the right place. Get ready for insights, inspiration, and a whole lot of life hacks. This is a Muslim Life Hackers podcast. Let's dive in. Assalamu Alaikum, Gemi. Welcome to the show.
Gemi Hartojo:Wa'alaikum Salam Warohmatullah, how are you?
Mifrah Mahroof:Good, Alhamdulillah. How are you?
Gemi Hartojo:To be, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so
Mifrah Mahroof:much too. I'm so excited to have you here. Let's start off with the question that we ask all our guests. Can you start off with an introduction and tell us about yourself.
Gemi Hartojo:Asalamu Alaikum Warahmatullah. I'm Coach Gemi and I am a Muslim woman business coach. I help, aspiring entrepreneurs, seasoned entrepreneurs and their teams, as well as I help, people who want to be intrapreneurs within their organization to level up and step up into their best self, live into their Amanah, and live into their best life in this life and in the hereafter too.
Mifrah Mahroof:Awesome. Well, there's a lot to unpacking that because that's like an overall mission. So it's like, some of the things that we spoke about before we interviewed, the record button was around high achieving women. So this is something that we can both relate to actually, like we want to get out there, get our goals and achieve all of these things. But there's something that happens to a lot of high achieving women is the whole topic of burnout. And, I want to know what your thoughts on this, like, what are you seeing?
Gemi Hartojo:I would say across the board, it's very interesting. I coach both Muslim and non Muslim women too, because even though I do target only Muslim, but there's both that come to me. And what I'm seeing across the board is that, women are finding themselves in hair pulling situations, meaning that they're so, they've hit a wall and they are finding themselves on that hamster wheel in a way that is like telling them that they're not able, they don't have a choice to get out of it, right? To get out of that hamster wheel and what I've noticed is that It's bleeding to all parts of their lives. They are not performing the way they want to do. They want to perform at work. they feel, their bodies actually, super tired as well, right? So they're not able to self regulate. They're not able to, be resilient. They're not able to, just going to kind of hold it all in. they all kind of like look the part and they're, performing well, but when they come to me, they're at a point where they're just like, they're at a wall and everything is kind of like spiraling. They don't know where they're going. And why am I here? And all these questions, right there that are coming up, they know that there's something more, they know that there's something more to their life. And they're like, do I just like, quit the job and run away and kind of do my own thing. And I'll just say that that's not really a solution, right? we need to kind of like identify, what do they really need? And so the first question I usually ask is, what do you need? What do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. So you touched up on that, first of all jobs, right? So you're finding that a lot of women are burning out in their jobs. So, is that something that's specific to women or do men also face that?
Gemi Hartojo:I think, not as much in men. Okay, why why would you say that's a case? I think men's perspectives are completely different. They have a masculine energy. They like the doing, right? They like the task, orientation. I think the biggest challenge with men in a workspace is they're trying to become that alpha male, right? There's, and then that's a tendency of the, you know, we're going to talk about a little bit about the masculine and the feminine energy. And what I found out is that, the systems today, workspace, corporate workspace, I mean, life in general has been designed by guys, right? Where it's industrial, which is like one step to the next, you know, everything has to be in order. At seven o'clock, you have a meeting at this, you have this, you have a deadline, you have to create this. And there's a lot of to do lists that come out of this, where men thrive in that environment, because they just. They're task oriented, right?
Mifrah Mahroof:But that's very interesting because that's how life is. Like, that's the expectation that we have task orientated. Like there isn't really any other way to get it done. other than that way.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah. Yeah. And do you know why?
Mifrah Mahroof:what aids that?
Gemi Hartojo:Because it's result oriented.
Mifrah Mahroof:But then how else would you get results?
Gemi Hartojo:So here's the thing. There is a dichotomy that I've kind of tested and I have gone through my software, so when men are given, because they're very one minded, one track minded, and physiologically, they don't have the same sort of ability to multitask as women do. Right? So task oriented is the kind of way to do however, women don't operate that way. Women have the ability, go sisters, right? We have the ability to do laundry. boil pasta, have a meeting, go write something, check on the kids, we have this innate ability. And, actually, When we're in this flow, right? Okay. Yeah. We're going to do all these things. It actually allows us. And I don't know, I've seen this actually with a lot of, women professionals that I've worked with is that when we are able to have that outlet of like the different elements, it makes us actually be able to concentrate. And we're told like, Oh no, you have to sit one step at a time. Guess what? I'm not feeling it. I don't feel like writing that report at this moment because it's just not coming to me. Have you ever said to yourself, I just don't have the flow?
Mifrah Mahroof:Always. I have experienced that.
Gemi Hartojo:right? I just don't feel like it.
Mifrah Mahroof:But I thought that something's wrong with me and my laziness.
Gemi Hartojo:because we're told, no, no, you need to do point A first, point B first, point C first. And many men think, oh, women are crazy because they're just not concentrating, because they're doing all kinds of things at one go. But actually, in that chaos, actually is clarity, because women and men are completely different. We go with flow. And on top of that, we have the physical capacity, by Allah, to be able to do many things. So, you know, their highway is like only one element at a time that goes to do one. It's like, do this. Okay, let's think about it. Have you ever asked your husband, Hey, you know what, can you please take this, do this, do this? It doesn't happen because they're overwhelmed. I live with a bunch of boys and this is what happens. What are you saying? We, I don't understand what you're saying. And I'm like, well, while you're having that meeting, you can run the machine. you can do all these things. and I will tell you, because my team is all women, we sometimes have meetings while we're cooking. And I will tell you some of the best ideas, some of the best solutions have come out of those meetings. So what does that tell you?
Mifrah Mahroof:that tells me a lot. Actually. It tells me that the way the workplace is set up today is not very, supportive for the feminine energy, So it also makes you wonder if the structures that we have today, the corporate world, the way we are told to approach productivity, for example, is all very masculine, energy, right? it's like a masculine way to do, do things. And then you think about the feminine energy and it's just chaotic. It's like, I just wonder, if there's just chaos, then how do you even get anything done?
Gemi Hartojo:Well, here's the thing. Inherently, both men and women have feminine and masculine energy. It's not just because we're women we just have feminine energy. No. Actually, we need our masculine energy to get things done. However, We need to use that masculine energy to set ourselves up for success.
Mifrah Mahroof:Right,
Gemi Hartojo:the analogy is like, you know, you want to work out every single day, but you know, we got to put our abayas on, we got to put our clothing on and in the house, we're not using that or whatever. And comes time, we got to work out, but we're downstairs and our clothing is upstairs. Right? So what do we do to set ourselves up for success? Is we, in the closet, we have our running clothes or whatever clothes ready to go. And this is an example of utilizing the masculine energy to set it up for the success so that when we feel like running, we can use it.
Mifrah Mahroof:Ah, right. That's an interesting one. So, are you trying to say that you wouldn't set a time?
Gemi Hartojo:Well, sometimes let's say you have a child. The child is once had a, vomited at the time that you're supposed to go. Hmm. And I've noticed even for myself that to do lists no longer work. And even with my team, I'll tell you, this is very interesting. And we tried this for an entire year. We used to have a to do list, like, all these things that we had to do. It was tch, all these things. We did not get anything done. we were like, why, why do we have all these to do lists? We did all these, and we did them, like we've kind of forced ourselves to do it, but it was like as if we were spinning our wheels.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:So we switched gears and we went into, you know what, we're going to have our meetings while we're cooking or we're doing whatever. It is what it is. life happens. And we chose two, maximum three core things that we needed to get done that day. In one year, we got literally multiply that by three by 360 days, 360. It all got done.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm, but it
Gemi Hartojo:improvement and we saw change. Did we get stuff done? Absolutely. But was it in a to do? I gotta do a little checklist. It didn't work. let's think about yourself and how you work. Your best work isn't a checklist. Yeah when I actually think about how
Mifrah Mahroof:it works, I have a checklist, and then I do everything that's not on the checklist. But I get that done. Yes,
Gemi Hartojo:and so, what this is tell us? And it tells me too, right? We need to be very clear on what we call the big rocks. You know, I think Stephen Covey talks about this, you know, The seven habits of highly effective People Like, oh the big rocks. And Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala actually tells us the same. What are the most non negotiables that we have to do? And this includes our work, right? So for example, you are in marketing. Okay, I know that at certain times of the year they're going to have like post analysis and put it, whatever. that's a little goal or a little project you put up on the wall. But you know, and you give yourself time and you set yourself up for success to come towards that. And you do it when you have the feeling, because let's say you have to write a analysis that takes like insight, right? That takes time.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:Rather than knee jerking around, and, the masculine way of doing it, like this corporate way of doing it, the checklist is just a control. They want to control, right? because that's what guys do. Like, I mean, not guys do, but like what the masculine energy does, which is to control and the corporate system is meant to control
Mifrah Mahroof:Isn't it? Hmm,
Gemi Hartojo:Think about it
Mifrah Mahroof:yeah. Very much so. That's very interesting. So would you say that is why you're finding a lot of, high achieving women who are in a corporate setting and in their jobs? So we haven't got to the part of entrepreneurs or high achieving mothers who take on a lot, but just coming back to this example, this is why you see them burn out eventually. So they're coming into the job, they're doing it very well. And they actually like going up, up, up. And then at a point there. Burnout.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah, because they're not fulfilled right? Because flow is a is a sense of fulfillment, right?
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. You
Gemi Hartojo:feel right. It's not, it's not about how you think. it's really interesting to watch, my high performers go from, well, I think that we should do it like this. I think we have to do it like this. That's masculine energy, right? Because that's trying to fill the checklist. Whereas the feminine energy is, you know, kind of talking about how you feel. It's that flow. And you know, it's just quite interesting. And I myself, and I'm going through that too, learning about the feminine energy. I was like, I'm not an expert in feminine energy and I'm going through that too. So it's quite interesting how, when you're in flow, whatever you get thrown at you, you're like, yeah, that's a lot. Amazing. Thank you. And you know that it's going to get done. Cause let me ask you, how many times have you. gone through the day and you're like, Oh my God, yeah, I have to take the kid. I have to like, there's so many things that I have to do. But when you start to lean into yourself and say, it's got to get done, it does get done, doesn't it?
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. When I actually just sit with myself and say, Hey, it's going to be okay. Yeah. And it gets done.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah, it doesn't get done in the order that somebody else wants necessarily, right?
Mifrah Mahroof:Okay. So I guess now we're talking about this concept of flow and how we can best, work as high achieving females. Now, I was wondering, If someone did reach a point of burnout because they've been working in a way that's not, in line with the way that would best suit them. And so at that point, what is it they need to do? Because you mentioned earlier how some people reach that point of burnout and they're like, I'm going to leave my job. And you'll say, no, that's not a solution. and there's more to it. what can someone who's going through burnout do at that point? is it just about strategies? Is it about understanding how they work?
Gemi Hartojo:well, the reason why I say it's not necessarily the solution to just to quit your job, because, not all women or not all people like have that, luxury to just get up and quit, Of course,
Mifrah Mahroof:exactly
Gemi Hartojo:right, you know, financially and all the responsibilities that go with it, right,
Mifrah Mahroof:my suggestion is
Gemi Hartojo:always to sit down and take stock Sit down and find out first. What your life purpose is, right? So we have the ultimate life purpose as a Muslim to worship Allah But you know, there's like oh people like I have to go like worship Allah all day. Yes, we are worshipping Allah all day, but to take it further Allah has given you Passions, specific passions that you like, has been having given you specific skills that you have, right? and Allah's given you gifts that are only yours. So let's say as an example, right? Oh, I'm really passionate about helping people. I'm really passionate about communication. I'm really passionate about science, for example, right? And you know, their skills are like, I'm really great at math. Well, there's a lot of people who are great at math or a lot of people who are great at writing what have you. but the true Amana, the muwahib, God, it's a, you know, Al-Wahab right, going back to Al-Wahab Al-Wahab is the gift, right? we have been given a gift that we didn't ask for, from Allah that is specific to us that makes us truly unique. There's literally only one of you in this world. And how that works is you make people happy. Okay, you could be in tech. You're great at math. But your thing is making people happy. Like when people work with you or people are with you, people just enjoy working with you. now we sit down and look at, you know, your zone of genius. I like to call this a zone of genius because it actually allows you to kind of harness like all three elements and then, apply it to Either your job or you are going to realize, oh, maybe this is not the right environment for that. So the way I like to look at it is like, once you find out what your zone of genius is, let's say you're passionate, you know what your skills are and your gifts are to make people happy. Well, maybe the environment needs to be. Let's say in education or maybe it's in a more, less, maybe private company that's less driven by Stockholders or, you know, stock prices, which is a lot more stressful, right? Because it's all about making sure that you hit those specific goals. Yeah yeah those targets when I talk about the zone of genius, I think people call it like the Ikigai, people sometimes use the Ikigai. I don't know if you're familiar with that, I honestly don't like the Ikigai, because there's a component there that says, what does the world need? And here we go. That is a trying to fit in. We're not trying to fit in.
Mifrah Mahroof:Okay.
Gemi Hartojo:to be ourselves. We need to be ourselves, please, because literally, there's only one of you, there's only one of me, maybe we do the same thing, but we do it in our way, and so there, technically there's no competition, this is like an approach that I really like to, that has worked actually for my girls, No, we don't need to look at the competition. There is no competition because there's only one of you. How can you be? It's like apples to oranges. Are you going to like, are apples going to compete with oranges? No.
Mifrah Mahroof:tell me, help me understand zone of genius better. you were saying there was skills, there was, um,
Gemi Hartojo:Um, your passion
Mifrah Mahroof:your skills and passion, okay,
Gemi Hartojo:and then, and then your
Mifrah Mahroof:helping people and gifts, so gifts meaning, like something that you are uniquely given.
Gemi Hartojo:Something that you're uniquely given, but the way to kind of find out, what your gifts are is to ask yourself, what do people usually say about, when they connect with me, when they're in my, in my, company, when they work with me, for example. So you want to try? Can we try? You want to try with you?
Mifrah Mahroof:okay,
Gemi Hartojo:let's, do this.
Mifrah Mahroof:let's
Gemi Hartojo:Okay. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a, like,
Mifrah Mahroof:I'm nervous,
Gemi Hartojo:piece.
Mifrah Mahroof:let's do this.
Gemi Hartojo:That's okay. You can do b roll. And take it out if you don't want to. All right, we're gonna play here. So, I got this. I'm making this little thing.
Mifrah Mahroof:Okay, so there's three, there's three circles for those who are listening to this on audio. Three circles that are overlapping. Okay.
Gemi Hartojo:mm hmm. It's like a Venn diagram, right? So, tell me what your passions are.
Mifrah Mahroof:Well, my passions are really, about empowering and uplifting, making people more independent in a way that they only have to depend on Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, self sufficient, we can say.
Gemi Hartojo:Alright,
Mifrah Mahroof:So rather than it's, I think the thing that I'm really intrigued by is like, okay, you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to fish. So it's like, that would be something around the whole thing about becoming more self sufficient, empowered and in whichever in different areas. So yeah, very simplistic though. I don't have anything complicated. And this is the first thing that's coming to mind. So for those listening, I did not have anything.
Gemi Hartojo:And she did not know she was gonna do
Mifrah Mahroof:this going to
Gemi Hartojo:this
Mifrah Mahroof:me on the spot. So
Gemi Hartojo:All right, and so tell me what your skills are
Mifrah Mahroof:my skills is tech.
Gemi Hartojo:What does that mean sorry, what does that mean?
Mifrah Mahroof:Well, what does tech mean? Tech
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah for you Yeah, Podcasting is
Mifrah Mahroof:one. Cloud based technologies. I mean, things that are, online, I find it very easy to learn, pick up automations, teach people how to use, whatever's out there, technical stuff that's out there to, actually also help them understand it. So I actually enjoy, sitting with someone who's non technical and help them understand the power of the tech to help them. and I have that patience for that.
Gemi Hartojo:That's skill right there.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. So
Gemi Hartojo:Okay, so now tell me what do people say when they interact with you, when they work with you, and you can even start like with your family, your friends, your colleagues at work. What do they usually say?
Mifrah Mahroof:Well, they say that I bring energy, like I make
Gemi Hartojo:them Okay,
Mifrah Mahroof:happy. I mean, yeah, around that. I mean, That's what comes to mind, right? Right? actually, I'm always up to something interesting, something random. I mean, my friends would say, I'm doing something one day, and then the next week they'd be like, Oh, Mifrah's up to this, or Mifrah's in this part of the world, or Mifrah's, like, jumping into a sinkhole or something,
Gemi Hartojo:so you are, I wouldn't say random, but it's like adventurous.
Mifrah Mahroof:Adventurous. Yeah. Adventurous. that's a word. But adventurous in also the work that I do as well.
Gemi Hartojo:wow, look at that. tell me, what environment would you like to be in that you think these passion skills and gifts like could come to play?
Mifrah Mahroof:it's definitely in an environment where there's autonomy. So I do have a somewhat say in what I'm doing
Gemi Hartojo:Uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof:and in environment where I can practice my creativity and not be very constricted by that
Gemi Hartojo:uh huh,
Mifrah Mahroof:so I can test out different things. So there is that whole that adventurousness in the new ideas I might wanna try, for example,
Gemi Hartojo:uh huh, and
Mifrah Mahroof:having that freedom to explore it. So I think these are the kind of environments, these are the kind of things that I enjoy when I'm working.
Gemi Hartojo:yeah, so this would be an environment, so the environment has to be safe too, right? Accommodating, no judgment, sounds like you're an entrepreneur.
Mifrah Mahroof:the diagnosis?
Gemi Hartojo:will, but we're going to play, we're going to play here what your zone of genius is, right? so one thing I like to say is that anytime anybody says like, I want to label my life purpose or what my zone of genius is, it's all playable. And you're going to notice, once you start to get into this habit of doing this, that there are going to be seasons of that in your life. When you first get out of school, it's a different kind of life purpose or a zone of genius, right? it's just gonna, it's just going to change. And so this is something that's malleable, that's living, and you get to play with it all the time. But to know it, is very important because then it can become a compass in you trying to find the flow that you're looking for. What you had just described to me, when you have all of these elements come to play, you are in a complete flow.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. That's very interesting. And the fact that you actually mentioned that things like that is malleable. Cause I find when you go along that talk of a personality test or your introverted, extroverted, it's like you're boxed into something. And that box for me is very constricting. I
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah, yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:just thought it's just, yeah, that's what I think. And it's like, no, like we grow as people as well.
Gemi Hartojo:because sometimes you want to eat something spicy, and tomorrow you want to eat something salty. Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:that's true. Okay. So that's a very interesting way to approach it. So finding that zone of genius. So you can find, am I in the right place right now? That is respecting those things that are important to me right now.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:Interesting. So,
Gemi Hartojo:to kind of bring it all together is what we want to do is we want to say, okay, my zone of genius is something along the lines where I have the autonomy, and a sandbox and the safety to, teach, help people. or women or whoever it is that you want to do or even yourself. you can do this in an office setting too. that is taking very difficult things, such as tech and distill it for those who don't understand it. And you're going to do this with absolutely high energy. And an invitation to go on an adventure, like a permission, because you are going through this yourself, you actually are giving other people permission, to experiment. And here's the thing. Now we talk about setting, right? We talk about like environment. you do sound like an entrepreneur because the autonomy and the freedom is important. However, I think that there's also an element of safety that is, needs to be honored here. And what is that safety? That safety is probably financial, financial stability, knowing that you have a place to go, knowing that there's a paycheck coming in and all these other elements. And this is why the, going back to our first Question about when you hit a wall, don't just leave, take a moment and do this actually exercise and say, Hmm, where in the company that I'm at? Could I do this? And it doesn't mean that you're going to go into new role, but to really to get creative and say, where in my that 20 percent and many companies do that, right? These days they're like, okay, you could have 10 percent or 20 percent of that time to do something that's within the company that can be helpful. For example, maybe, digital transformation is a real thing, right? In organizations and organizations buy software and tools for automation for to be more efficient, but a lot of people don't want to use it. And actually, I think Martek or something like that had a huge article about that, that companies are spending so much money on this, but there's no adoption rate. Maybe this could be an opportunity for you to open the door and say, Hey guys, I could help with the adoption rate of a certain blah, blah, blah for Team X. Right? It's starting small. And so you're fulfilling that need or that burning need to do this while also doing what you need to do, right? so it's like, Okay, well, I can do that, right? Because for somebody to say, okay, I'm going to jump out the window and become a full blown entrepreneur and not be ready because all of a sudden there's no set time. There's no framework that we're used to. It becomes scary. It's like you're used to swimming in a swimming pool and then come on, let's go swim in the ocean. And then automatically you don't swim to the middle of the ocean because that's not what you're used to.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:You stay close to shore.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. Until you start building it up slowly.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:That makes a lot of sense.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:that, would be the question to ask at that point. if we were to take a step back, so a lot of women who are in a corporate role or something. And they also have other things like, we see they have families, they have other responsibilities outside. how do you step back and think about that? Like say if you were a full time mother, for example, and a mother does so much and.
Gemi Hartojo:Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof:they can also go through that burnout. So in that case, how do you put all your family and your children into a genius zone and make that work? Because with work you can do that, right?
Gemi Hartojo:well, you can do that. so now we have, Islam comes to play, right? It's Haqq, right? We have Haqq, right? We have, the word Haqq is like, okay, what is my Haqq to my body, right? Myself, my sanity. and then what's my Haqq to my family? What does that look like? And really sit down. What does that actually look like? Oh, no, I have to give my time. I have to give my time. That's what they're, oh, I have to do this. I have to hold on. hold on. Hold on. Even our prophet. Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam goes to his cave and takes a moment
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:from his four wives, the children, the chaos, the fight, imagine that, right? But he took time to himself and Allah didn't punish him for that, right? That's Haqq. it's going back to pouring into yourself. But I think the pouring into yourself, from a Western context or non Islamic context, it's like, Oh, get massages, do what, you want, live your life, that kind of deal. Whereas hold on, what really what we need is feeding our soul, time for ourself. Contemplation. Because actually the owner of time, they get, Oh, I don't have time. Well, hold on. who owns time? Allah. Okay. Have you ever had that situation where, Oh my God, I have to go to a meeting and I have to pray. Oh my God, I only have five minutes. you have already have this, like, I gotta go to that meeting. So I'm rushing with Allah, but hold on. Allah is the owner of time and try this. I will recommend this. You have five minutes and you say, you know what, Allah, you are the creator of time. I'm going to pray because I want to worship Allah. I swear that five minutes you just relax and it's not really five minutes because technically Allah owns the time. Does that make sense? Because the feeling of rushing is actually just in our head. Because we've been told five minutes is not enough time. But who made time?
Mifrah Mahroof:but then at the end, five minutes passes though, in both situations,
Gemi Hartojo:But the emotions are different. That's Right. I remember my eldest saying to me, Mama, Mama, Mama, tell me how five minutes feels like. And I'm like, and this guy, he was like a little kid, right? I'm like, what in the world? Now that I reflect on it, that's exactly it. I had him actually sit down and this is five minutes. This is what it feels like. But he couldn't still grasp the concept. And now I understand it because actually time is a feeling.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. And
Gemi Hartojo:Isn't it? just try it.
Mifrah Mahroof:also the whole concept of five minutes, it was something that came later on in life, like later on in human history, the clock and the time and all that stuff.
Gemi Hartojo:exactly.
Mifrah Mahroof:That's an interesting way to see it. so what I'm hearing at this point is if you were approaching work, it would be through the zone of genius, but then if you were burning out because of all of your responsibilities that you have, and what I mean by that is family and all of the different things that you have, at that point, you would take a step back and go back to what is expected from me, from Allah SWT. And that's the way to approach it.
Gemi Hartojo:I would do that. And the zone of genius, because here's the thing, the zone of genius is really important for us to know who we are. So for example, you love teaching, right? you want to empower, let's say you have kids and you know what? Your kid doesn't know anything about tech. Wow, you can really empower her or him or them, teaching them the power of Tech in happy mode and may it be five minutes, 10 minutes, but you see the thing is it's like that cookie. We just want to set, satiate that sensation that we ate or like we took something for us. And actually when we do the zone of genius, the indication that you are in your zone of genius, it does not feel like work. It feels like it's part of you.
Mifrah Mahroof:I
Gemi Hartojo:see. It's very interesting you know, cause it's like, go just do that thing. You could do it for hours
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:and you wouldn't realize it. Right. Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:this whole exercise of zone of genius is something that you should do regardless of whether you're a working mum or you're staying at home with the children, because even if you're staying at home with the children, you're still working. It's
Gemi Hartojo:Oh,
Mifrah Mahroof:raising children. It's not easy.
Gemi Hartojo:Oh, absolutely not. It is a headache. It's like having, at least within the office, you can talk to people and say, Hey, you know what, that's not cool, what you said, or what you did. and you need to go time yourself out, right? You can say that too. I wouldn't say time yourself out, but you can like, I need a break, right? you can actually say that, but with children, that doesn't work. you can have a high fever and your children just can be jumping all over you. And that's what it is.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah. Yeah. So I have a one and a half year old toddler, and if I'm tired, she doesn't understand that. She'll still jump on my head and start, and if I don't move, then I get a slap on my face or something, and it's like, okay. That's funny. And I was like, I've worked in corporate, I've done all this. And it's like, I think the hardest thing is just being a mother and raising children.
Gemi Hartojo:Oh, absolutely, I think it's highly underrated, but going back to the zone of genius, now I think about it, like, even for myself, I may have done it, like, inherently. I love adventure. I'm very curious. I like to try everything and, one thing that I would do with my boys, because they're boys, right? What are you going to do? I would do what I call Adventure Saturday. What's Adventure Saturday? Yeah, what's Adventure Saturday? so Adventure Saturday doesn't mean you're going on an adventure. It doesn't mean you're going backpacking. But really, it's about trying something new that nobody in the family has ever tried. So, for example, we would take a trip to the Asian market or to the Arabian market, for example, and just Pick up food or whatever and we go try it. And maybe we would like it. Maybe we don't. But the point was to go on an adventure and it could be a taste adventure. It could be like, Oh yeah, we're actually going to a field or we're going to like, I had to do a lot of outdoor things with the boys. It's just kind of like, whatever that may be. And you can even have the children make a suggestion. And so that's something, and it doesn't have to be done all day. It can be done 10 minutes. because we always think, oh, it has to be a thing. No, no,
Mifrah Mahroof:Because it goes back to the point you said earlier about time. Allah Subhanahuwata A'la is the owner of time. And it's the feeling that we get from that 10 minutes.
Gemi Hartojo:yeah, exactly. And I will tell you, satiation every time. They're happy every time. I'm tired. Great. What can I play that requires me? How can I play with them? how can I play with them in a way that I don't have to get up? from my seat. And I'll tell you the game that I created. It's called kick the butt. So I would sit, I would lie down on the sofa and I would swing my legs and I would say, whoever's butt I kick loses. And the boys would be so excited, they would run past me trying to get their butts not kicked. I didn't, And you don't
Mifrah Mahroof:have to move for that.
Gemi Hartojo:I just had to swing my legs on the side of the sofa. I'm sorry, I can just remember the excitement.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:so happy because I'm interacting with them and I'm laughing to myself like this is the dumbest thing ever
Mifrah Mahroof:Hey, but it
Gemi Hartojo:works But okay Yeah,
Mifrah Mahroof:Well,
Gemi Hartojo:ask you what would you do with your one and a half year old If you're tired
Mifrah Mahroof:Oh, well, if I am tired, it's a very hard one, actually. I don't have the answers because she's my first one and I'm still figuring things out. So, if I'm tired. I might go to my mom's house.
Gemi Hartojo:How interesting!
Mifrah Mahroof:I might go to my mom's house and like, mom, I'm really tired right now, but then sometimes I'm really tired that I can't even get myself in the car to drive, to go to my mom's house.
Gemi Hartojo:Okay, let's use this as an example because I think that your listeners would really appreciate an example, right? You're so tired you can't even lift yourself. So what's the first question that we need to ask ourselves is, what do I need? What do I need? So when you're tired like this, what do you need?
Mifrah Mahroof:I think just to, sit down and take a deep breath,
Gemi Hartojo:Okay.
Mifrah Mahroof:in my case, sometimes I can't even sit down cause she wants to climb on me. So I'll have to like stand up and take a deep breath.
Gemi Hartojo:Okay, so stand up and take a deep breath. I wonder if this is something that you could teach her. Hey, can we take deep breaths together?
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. Right. I see.
Gemi Hartojo:I will tell you children are extremely smart. I have these boys and I've always worked, when they were born, since they were like, I would work pretty remotely, which was a weird thing. But they would never impede on my time to work. And one thing is that no, yeah, really, really, they would never come bother me. Because from a very young age, I would talk to them as adults, I said, Okay, guys, I am going to give you your time. This is your time. And after that, after your time, I'm gonna have my time. And granted, it's not a long time, because they're little, I would get maybe maximum an hour to myself. And this is the beauty of actually being a stay at home mom. You control the time. You control like how you want your kids to be, not in a forceful way, but like an adult.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:I'm going to know it's now mama's playtime. And what really killed children really want is they just want to know that you're going to give them their time. Think about it. Is there a specific set time that you set for your daughter, every time after work, specifically for your daughter?
Mifrah Mahroof:No, not something intentionally.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah. And so this is what we probably need to maybe implement, Hey, I need to take a breath, but after I take my breath, which is five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever it is, we are going to create a routine. What's the thing that she likes to do? With you,
Mifrah Mahroof:She likes to read.
Gemi Hartojo:Ah, this is
Mifrah Mahroof:Oh, she likes me reading to her.
Gemi Hartojo:And so, you can say, Hey, I'm here, or whatever, you appear, I'm going to take my five minutes, explain to her, I'm going to take my five minutes to breathe. You go pick out a book that we can read together, and I'll read it to you. And you can say, look, I will take ten minutes to read to you. Right? So take out the kitchen timer, and so it's not like she'll come with like, a novel, like maybe you're like, I can't read the whole book, but I can do 10 minutes of reading, right? So creating a boundary for her, because actually children, they like boundaries. They like it. I mean, we like it.
Mifrah Mahroof:interesting. Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:Like we know, oh yeah, that's right, I've got 10 minutes to do this, I can squeeze this. We like it, it's part of inherently who we are, right?
Mifrah Mahroof:that's interesting. Well, she's still a toddler, so she's not talking yet, like not as,
Gemi Hartojo:And no, that's okay.
Mifrah Mahroof:Okay.
Gemi Hartojo:they understand, they know us. I started with my kids were around that age, 17 months, 17 months, like a year and something, yeah, yeah. And I think, oh. Okay, you're good over there? Mama's now going to do her thing. And I would come to my friend's house and their computers would be like tarnished because their children like went through it. I'm like, wow, what happened here? There's like a lack of respect, right? But at the end of the day, do we even respect ourselves?
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. That's true. Do we respect ourselves?
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah. Do we
Mifrah Mahroof:What does that actually look like?
Gemi Hartojo:Well, for me, respecting ourselves is first of all, respecting our Maker. Right? Because Allah SWT gave us a body, gave us a mind, gave us abilities, capabilities, gave us things to enjoy. And when we respect that, we're like, Oh, you know what? I respect Allah and I'm going to go walk because my body needs it.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:And children pick up on that respect.
Mifrah Mahroof:So what about that part about, you're saying how you saw computers get all, all over the place from their children, whereas,
Gemi Hartojo:Mm hmm. That was
Mifrah Mahroof:because of respect, how would it look like to have respect in a way that they won't come at your computers and just come into your workspace,
Gemi Hartojo:to them. You would explain it to them, right? this is their toys and this is your toy. and explain to them, this is what I like to use on a daily basis, just like when they have their toys. we can even show it to them in the fact like, Hey, there are special places for your toys. And like, you know, kids, they like their thing. They do. They like their thing. They don't like their stuff to be ruined.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:And it's a vice versa thing, right? We just, it's just like, Oh, we're not going to just throw your stuff into a box. No, no, let's put it really nicely. Let's put your cars in order. Let's put their stuff in order. like even my sons, they have that tendency to like, after a while, they're like, Oh, no, I have my thing. I want my thing. So it's like, they then turn learn how to want their thing. Oh, because mama has her thing.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. I see.
Gemi Hartojo:In fact, sometimes when I'm like, out of sync, let's say, I didn't spend the hour of working, and they come out and I just play with them. But mama, you need to go do your thing because I'm doing my thing. So, isn't that interesting?
Mifrah Mahroof:That is
Gemi Hartojo:and I will tell you, like, now that they're grown up, they really have that sense of I need my thing. I have my thing. I need my order. I need to be organized. Everything has its place and it's all this chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:It doesn't have to be chaos. Children are chaotic because we are chaotic.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. I think we need another episode of how to not be chaotic, but yeah. Well, goes back to setting down. Going back to setting down sense of genius
Gemi Hartojo:here's the thing. let's say, I would say you're probably very close to the environment that makes you like makes you tick, right? Because, you're doing this work right now, you're on this podcast, you've invited me, I can already feel the energy is very, quite flowy. But here's the thing, when you eat, when you do this, and you're like, I'm working on an oil rig, for example, I know this is quite extreme, but you actually love art. Like, This is just a compass for you, Qibla, right? For you to say, Oh, I'm not in the right place.
Mifrah Mahroof:I see. And
Gemi Hartojo:yeah. and this thing here applies to how, even if you want to run your business, the career that you want to make, even the life choices that you want to make. This here is a really great litmus test.
Mifrah Mahroof:that helps you organize the chaos eventually.
Gemi Hartojo:It's going to not be chaos because you're in flow. When you're in flow, literally the houses of women, we are so powerful. This is where the feminine energy is. We are the chaos. We are the chaos, right? Because like you just said earlier, our energy is like what feminine energy is like unpredictable. Yeah, it is.
Mifrah Mahroof:it is.
Gemi Hartojo:And so when there's chaos, we're the one in chaos. and believe me, just take a moment, ladies, sisters and whoever's listening and just think about it. When your family's jacked up, everything's crazy. Actually, you are the one who is not grounded. You are the one who is not feeling it. I've seen this even with my own life. When my husband and my kids are like, Oh, wait, I'm like, what is, Oh, I'm the one in chaos.
Mifrah Mahroof:there's a lot to think.
Gemi Hartojo:Okay. There's a lot to think, or is it a lot to feel?
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo:I love how you went straight to thinking. Oh Gosh, I have so much to undo, in
Mifrah Mahroof:terms of like, being very into the whole, work style and the productivity style and all of these checklists. I have a lot of checklists as well. And just trying to find a way that it works. in a way that I can flow through them. There's a lot of unlearning that I have to do. So for example, this interview, so one of the things I have been trying to implement more in interviews is that I would have a few questions this time and just let the conversation flow. that's another one I've been trying, but it is scary though. It's scary to let that chaotic energy flow, because you're scared as, because it makes you feel vulnerable. It makes you feel like, where is that going to lead? And how is that going to make me look or what are people going to think? So there are these things that happen.
Gemi Hartojo:And so
Mifrah Mahroof:so that's why there's this need to structure it. Oh, I have these 10 questions. That's it.
Gemi Hartojo:yes, yeah, so that's control, right? So this is the part of us that has been told that we need to control, because we see it, it's modeled, right? Oh, if you do this, then this is what happens. If you do this, and this is what happens. But now then we think of, I think there was an ustada that actually said, the thing that you hear and you obey, that's your lord, right? I hear that I have to do this result, or I hear that people are going to say such and such, and that's what I'm going to do to make sure that I'm going to do the thing. So these things, external things are going to be okay. And hold on, then we're practicing shirk, right? It's a form of shirk. Because who should we hear and obey? Allah. Allah didn't say you need to have checklists to be successful in your life. No. If in fact, we were just in Dalia's group where, no, our compass is the Salat. What's the important things, the elements, the big rocks in our lives, get those done. And Allah says it actually, all the Hufadh, just like watch this, like all the Hufadh, those who are truly, in like the memorize the Quran, but they also like manifest it. They're also doctors, lawyers, they're successful in their lives. They're rich, right? It's very contradictory to like, Oh no, you've got to study all day long. I've seen it and I'm like, Whoa, what? We've got it all wrong. we've bought into the Kool Aid of Oh, if I work hard and I get a degree, I'm going to get a job. who's going to give you a job?
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah, allah SWT,
Gemi Hartojo:the one who gives everything, you know,
Mifrah Mahroof:does it mean that, so this whole thing about chaos, right? Does it mean that it's okay to be chaotic? Or it's a thing?
Gemi Hartojo:it's actually important for us to be chaotic. Let me ask you, do you find yourself productive when you just do one thing?
Mifrah Mahroof:Ah, no, no, not really.
Gemi Hartojo:not really. No, Now. If you ask a guy, they can only be productive when they do one thing.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo:everybody here, just go ask your husband or your son or your family member that's a male and tell them, take the trash out, do the laundry, go boil some eggs. They cannot do it for the life of them. You have to say, take out the trash and then stop. Go boil eggs. Once the boil eggs are done, then you can tell them to do something else. Other than that, no, no, no, no. I challenge you. I live with guys, so I know. They're like, what are you saying? What are you saying?
Mifrah Mahroof:this has been a lot of fun and a lot of flow. And a lot of unlearning, because it's like, as we say this, even when I say checklist, so in order to make a podcast, in order to make an episode, I have a checklist from start to end, but my checklist, that document that I have, my checklist is, it's a mess. there's so much stuff that I'm writing everywhere and I feel bad about that before, but now I'm like, Hey, that's fine. That's part of creativity. So the checklists are there, but there's also a lot of stuff that I've written up, like stuff that I wanted to ask you and stuff we could talk about and what makes me curious about you. And it's just messy, but I think with messy is where these great things happen as well. So
Gemi Hartojo:Absolutely. Absolutely. So what would you take away from this
Mifrah Mahroof:what,
Gemi Hartojo:Look at me. I can't take it because I'm the coach. Right? I'm like, what do you take away from this
Mifrah Mahroof:What did I take, away from this? it's really understanding that, the feminine energy is very different to the way we've been taught. We've been taught growing up really about, what it means to achieve what it means to work the working styles and all of these things. we really need to sit down and ask ourselves, I need to ask myself, like when I start putting myself down thinking, Oh, why am I so chaotic? why are my notes so chaotic? And why is my husband's notes so neat and so like, I don't know how he does it. it's just like one thing and It's like,
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah, because there's, physically they don't have the highway that we have.
Mifrah Mahroof:So it's just learn to be, accept that. And then working with it rather than constantly working against it. I guess that
Gemi Hartojo:is my biggest take Yes. Yes.
Mifrah Mahroof:work against my nature and work with it so that we can be able to, do the great things and do the things that we want to achieve as ultimately like high achieving females, I guess.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah. No,
Mifrah Mahroof:most importantly, slaves of Allah SWT. That's what it's coming down to.
Gemi Hartojo:Yeah. it's very like eyeopening and also discerning because you're like, wow. Like you say, you have to unlearn things. I would like to stay away from like negative, like terminology. It's just Hey, you know what? now I know. How about that? Now I know. Now I know. Yeah. and I want to make like a, disclaimer, I am also still learning about the feminine and masculine energy. A lot of my own learning comes from, Sister Rosie, Rosalian Batool, she's fantastic. And you guys can all, learn more about, that because that is her focus, So I really don't want to, take that away. cause it's, she's been very, quite helpful. And the way she explains it is very relatable to, I think our Muslim community. and it's much needed. Absolutely. Yeah.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm. So. Any, any final words today before we end off?
Gemi Hartojo:Final words, what will I say? I would say, before knee jerk reactions, like throwing away the baby with the bathwater. I think that's the terminology. take a moment. Do the zone of genius. I really highly recommend it for everybody to do that work. Just see where are things aligned. Is this aligned with my life purpose, my dunya purpose, my ultimate life purpose, to worship Allah? and how do I feel about where I am today? this is really important to like, oh, well, I have to do it. Once any, any words with have to, should, could, need, those are all. External energies,
Mifrah Mahroof:Hmm.
Gemi Hartojo:And if you're like, I feel like I just want to do nothing. Well, do nothing. And the thing is that sometimes we take it to extreme. Don't take it to extreme. Do nothing for five minutes. Do nothing for 10 minutes.
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah,
Gemi Hartojo:Maybe that's really what you need, right?
Mifrah Mahroof:Yeah.
Gemi Hartojo:Not, I want to, that's it, I'm going to quit and like run away. No, no, because when we're in that state, we're coming from a state of like frantic and I'm burnt out and making decisions, there's only going to be regret. We're supposed to like, oh, this is where I'm at. like Google Maps. Oh, I still have like five hours to go. Okay. Relax. Right? You're to my destination. You know where you are. What are my next steps? And that's it. I'm just going to move a little bit by little,
Mifrah Mahroof:Little bit by little. True.
Gemi Hartojo:a little bit
Mifrah Mahroof:Well, Thank you so much, Gemi, for coming
Gemi Hartojo:You're welcome.
Mifrah Mahroof:Hey everyone, that wraps up another episode of the Muslim Life Hackers podcast. I really hope you enjoyed our chat today and got some great takeaways from it. If you like what you heard and don't want to miss out on our next conversations, hit that subscribe button. It really means a lot to us and helps us grow the show. And you know what? If you're feeling extra generous today, drop us a review or a rating. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you again for tuning in until next time, keep striving and getting better every day.
